Three Times

[stoutfellow]

"What I say three times is true."

I've always associated that line with Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark. (Actually, I've always associated it with my one-time teacher Saunders MacLane, who used it as a mnemonic for one of the peculiar features of Heyting logic; but I'm pretty sure he got it from Carroll.) But I'm reading Jim Butcher's Summer Knight, which at one point suggests that it originates in a piece of fairy-lore, to the effect that if one of the fae says the same thing three times, it must either be telling the truth or do whatever it can to make it the truth. Does anyone know whether Butcher is making this up or quoting some actual legendry?

Comments

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

I know I've come across it in honest-to-goodness fairy tales before, I just can't remember offhand which ones. Flann O'Brien makes extensive use of the trope in his At Swim-Two-Birds.

[stoutfellow.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It sounded familiar, but - like you - I couldn't place it.

[nishatalitha.livejournal.com]

I can't quote anything in particular, but three is a common number in fairytales, and I've definitely come across the say three times and its true aspect before.

Elizabeth Kerner uses it in Song in the Silence which is not a fairy tale. Only actual example I can think of.

[stoutfellow.livejournal.com]

Thanks; I'll take a look.

[kattsune.livejournal.com]

I took a course on Celtic stuffs taught here by Prof. Griffen (who I think has since retired, but may still be reachable if you're interested in pursuing this - his talks were fascinating, btw), and I remember that 3 was a very important number to the celts, with a three-headed (souled) cosmic god, and a triple-aspect goddess (1 soul, three forms: maiden, mother, crone). That particular rule wasn't mentioned, but the idea was that if something happened or was said three times, that made it *real*... (There was also mention of a fourth time, where if something was said a fourth time, it was CEMENTED as truth... or some such.)

Three as a significant number shows up in a lot of mythology, fairy tales, and religions. I bet there's probably a ton of scholarly research on it somewhere, if you know the right search terms. I don't. Google betrays me.

[stoutfellow.livejournal.com]

I might contact him. I know him; we worked together on university business a time or two, and once, when I had a question about linguistics, we exchanged a few messages. Thanks for mentioning him.

three

[(Anonymous)]

Three is a very important number in lots of stories. Three little pigs, three witches in shakespears play. Three wishes, three beds/bowls/chairs..etc. And I don't get the arm movements either. Donp

[tygerr.livejournal.com]

"Say it three times" goes back in human history AT LEAST as far as ancient Sumeria. Anything of import was said three times in succession in three different ways. And anything regarding gods or anything spoken to or by someone much higher in the social hierarchy was *automatically* something of import.

I cannot IMAGINE how incredibly dull royal courts must have been, with everyone saying everything three times.

(That's one of the biggest contributors to making ancient Sumerian myth a tough slog to have to read. Other than the whole "dead language in a dead script" thing....)

I can easily see that concept spreading to/through Europe along with wheat-based agriculture, and mutating over time/distance until it's a "Fae thing" by the time it reaches Britain. But that's just me, with a baseless ad hoc 'explanation'. I have no idea if these things are truly connected.